<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1" ?>
<rss version="2.0">
  <channel>
    <title>NAST Discussion Board</title>
    <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/index.php</link>
    <description><![CDATA[]]></description>
    <language>EN</language>
    <pubDate>Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:17:25 +1000</pubDate>
    <lastBuildDate>Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:17:25 +1000</lastBuildDate>
    <category>NAST Discussion Board</category>
    <generator>Phorum 5.1.10</generator>
    <ttl>600</ttl>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] McGill, neutral spnie and stretching</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,917,917#msg-917</link>
      <author>Phillip</author>
      <description><![CDATA[i was wandering what peoples thoughts were on McGills contention that the spine should not be taken out of neutral while performing stretching exercises. His argument is that this will cause to much mobility and thus destabilse the spine potentially leading to injury.

Cheers

Phillip]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,917,917#msg-917</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:17:25 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] stability or control of instability</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,916,916#msg-916</link>
      <author>Phillip</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Hi All,

I was wandering what peopls thoughts were on Serge Gracovetsky's argument that the idea of stability is problomatic and that control of instability would be a more appropriate model.  A you tude link provides a recent interview with Gracovetsky highlilights some of his ideas.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=serge+gracovetsky

One of Gracovetsky's main arguments is that holding a static stabilised position for lomg periods of time will cause certain tissues to become overloaded.  Therefore control maybe the central consideration rather than trying to hold an 'ideal' postural postion.  

Cheers

Phillip]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,916,916#msg-916</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 07:33:54 +1100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Are shoes the cause of chronic low back pain and neck pain?</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,731,915#msg-915</link>
      <author>James</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Kit,

Would an analogy be helpful?  Imagine accomplishing even the simplest of tasks with crooked fingers, and then consider that the entire body--including the hands--depends on the feet.

Keep in mind that even without a full understanding, elements of the treatment are still evident.

james]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,731,915#msg-915</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:55:57 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Are shoes the cause of chronic low back pain and neck pain?</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,731,914#msg-914</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[James, 

There are two fundamental problem with your position:

1. Nowhere do you explain the connection between crooked toes and disease: that causal chain is not connected. Baldly asserting this to be the case (that crooked toes cause disease) is not an argument; it is a polemic.

And the biggest problem for your theory that I wote to you about (via email) and which you have not so far acknowledged is: 

2. That all the South Sea Islanders, who NEVER wear shoes and never have worn shoes, all suffer the same diseases as the Westerners you refer to in your writing.

This is the problem, and I articulated this to you years ago: for your theory to be considered seriously by anybody, you need to need to make the connection—explicitly—between foot changes (your &quot;crooked toes&quot; above) and disease, and explain this population (the South Sea Islanders), because their existence and state of health is a direct contradiction to your position.

If you can do this, I am very hapy to continue the dialogue.]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,731,914#msg-914</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 13:32:37 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] ON&amp;BP - exercise 2</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,913,913#msg-913</link>
      <author>kane</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Hi,
I recently purchased the fourth edition of Overcoming Neck &amp; Back Pain and have started working through it. I have a question concerning exercise #2 - the seated forward bend. 

When performing this exercise, I am able to get right down with hands flat on the floor without feeling any pain or stretch sensations in my lower back. Rather, I tend to feel tension in my adductors once in the bottom position. Given that I am not experiencing any sensations in the target area, should I still persist with this exercise as part of the program?
with thanks

Kane]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,913,913#msg-913</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 05 Sep 2007 14:45:27 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Progress, setbacks, questions</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,784,912#msg-912</link>
      <author>BARRY</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Thanks Kit for your quick responce to my query. When I say I suffer the next day I'm talking about the nerve pain deep within my hamstrings ( a burning feeling) and tinggling at the top of my feet which I class as the original problem that I call sciatica. There is no sign of muscle pain. When things flare up as they have today after doing too much walking over the weekend it usually takes a week or so to be able to think about doing any stretches. 

I understand about the relationship between anxiety and my body pain and have been seeing a psycologist for 5 years twice a week to help me through my long held fears, self image and anxieties. Your comment regarding this is very applicable to me as no amount of scans, injections and medicines have located or releaved the problem/pain.

 I'll take on board your advice in adjusting the exercises to limit the range of the stretch.

Am I expecting too much of a change after 8 weeks? I have spent many years living in hope of a pain free life and I feel your explainations in your book of the cause and affect is relevant my problem so your futher advice will be greatly appreciated.

Regards    Barry]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,784,912#msg-912</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 04 Dec 2006 17:51:52 +1100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Sacroiliac Joint pain</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,682,911#msg-911</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[expatient: can you provide a direct link to that video? If you send me the original, I can compress it for the web to make it more easily downloaded, perhaps. Even on my lightning fast broadband, it takes forever to download. In fact (ten minutes later) it did not download.

To all: nutation occurs only in preparation for delivery, AFAIK. The movements of the SI joint, described by Vleeming and Mooney are what happens in the pelvises of most people, most of the time.

Craig, call me if you want to discuss, or come to my clinic. 

I do not recommend stretching as the universal panaceae. I DO recommend piriformins stretches for SIJ pain—because so often pain in this reason is misdiagnosed piriformis pain. I recommend stretchign as a FIRST, recourse, not the final one—and the purpose is to identify what's involved, and to settle the pain down if it is caused by a muscle. Joints move because of tight muscles, or though trauma. The former becomes chronic; the latter usually passes. Muscular tightness is a primary cause of SI &quot;dysfunction&quot;. 

And it is true that, if sufficiently out of position (I am talking here of the irregular surfaces of the insides of the ilia and sacrum that forms the SIJs) then a chiropractor or osteopath may well be able to assist. BUT, if the out-of-position is caused by particular muscles, then they will have to be addressed. And an injection of anaesthetic or similar to that area will definitely calm piriformis pain too, so the diagnosis via injection that you had is not an explicit confirmation of the problem, nor does it rule piriformis out! Effective stretchign of piriformis is the only way to elimiminate this as a cause.

The bigger picture, as I alluded to above (and which, perhaps, you missed, Craig) is that asymmetric SIJ mobility is a piece of evidence itself: what is that a reaction to, or possibile solution to? LLI springs to mind. As well, even asymmetric hip flexor tighness is the same sort of clue, unless one practises asymmetric sports or other activities. What I am try to get at here is that nothing happens in the body without something MAKING it happen. The question here is—what? Happy to discuss.]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,682,911#msg-911</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 11:54:01 +1100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Has anyon tried Resistance Flexibility and Strength Training?</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,833,910#msg-910</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[With respect to Wes, we have been using this approach (just one of the many we use) in P&amp;F for at least the last ten years. In various places in all of my books, I say that—in time—in certain exercises, one will need to increase the contraction phase forces until they are all you can give. This is only true for experienced stretchers, who are accustomed to experiencing strong stretching forces, and who can relax in the final positions. Most people, and no beginners, can do this.

In the chapters on front and side splits (S&amp;F, 1999), I wrote that you needed to be strong enough in the stretch positions *to support your whole body's weight in the contraction phase*. If I have understood Wes' approach from the brief description that appeares on his site, he is saying something similar, and he goes furtherm in that he quantifies this force by saying that you need twice the resistance to stretch than you need for strengthening. I could not state this relationship in this way, because there are no obvious ways of assessing this. As well, most weight traiing exercises provide the maximum resistance in the *strongest* part of the ROM (different position for different joints) and stretching exercises using contractions provide this force at very different places in the ROM—usually at one end or the other.

As well, I wrote that to decrease the discomfort of a new stretch position (so, new ROM for the person concerned), one needs to lightly re-contract the muscles (with much less force that before, of course). This also assists the goal.

Finally, Joe Hope and Olivia Allnutt (both are S&amp;F and P&amp;F teachers) developed this technique using weight training resistance techniques (for their calf mucles in the beginning, then for other problematic muscles such as hip flexors, piriformis, and hamstrings). The technique involved supporting the maximum amount of weight that muscle could suport—in the fully stretched position—for a full minute, then hopping off the machine and doing the appropriate conventional stretch. Both of them loosened large, very tight, calf muscles that had been limiting their performances in other stretches in a few month's practise. 

They called this the &quot;Pre-Exhaustion&quot; techniques; it was advertised and taught at the ANU Sports Untion for years. Jim Pickles has adopted this technique to his ends in working with contortionists as well (Jim may care to step in here).

The presentation of ideas in my books is aimed at beginners, explicitly, for safety reasons. There are a number of techniques that we have been using in the Advanced P&amp;F and S&amp;F classes for years that I deliberately have not published, but this technique under discussion here is not one of these. 

And the demonstration exercise on Wes' site, as Jim ponted out above, provides only minimal resistance (the forces straight arms can provide to the 'heel hooking' action of contracting the hamstrings to flex the knee joint). As I wrote above, in our work using resistance in a similar way, the actual weights we were using produced forces that were vastly larger than this. Nonetheless, I think there is much to commend in Wes' approach; the only thing I am saying here is that the idea is not new, nor confined to Wes' group. 

Our hope is to share these techniques with others as time goes on. I would be delighted to practise some time with Wes and his team. Cheers, Kit]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,833,910#msg-910</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 11:24:43 +1100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Progress, setbacks, questions</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,784,909#msg-909</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[BARRY Wrote:

&gt; I can only do them for no more than 15 seconds on
&gt; each muscle (with the side stretches being double
&gt; on the left side of my body) or I suffer the next
&gt; day. 

When you say you suffer, can you be more explicit? My point here is that muscle soreness—to verying degrees—is actually *necessary* to improvement, as nasty as that sounds. Of course, too much suffering is not required either: we need to find the best level of stumulation to drive the adaptation reactions, stopping short of doing damage to one's self, of course. &quot;Suffering the next day&quot; may be very useful in the long run—as long as the suffering is not the original pain. If you have stretched adequately, your muscles will feel used, to be sure, and to a beginner this can feel depressingly like the original problem.

May I suggest that you continue the regimen as you have described it, but do not go as far in the range of movement as you have beren goiing, and staying in the new end positions for at least five breaths in and out at normal pace. Try to stay in the end positions for at leasy 30&quot; and 60 would be preferable. Make sure you consciously breath deeply in this process.

Tension is inextricably tied to the feeling of anxiety. The liklihood of hurting yourself (doing anytihng) increases as the feeling of anxiety increases. I recommend strongly that you give some consideration to learning the relaxation prts of the approach  as well, to complement the stretching. You will be amazed at how much more effective this will make the method.

Re-occurances of the original problem are to be expected, until the body is loose enough for the demands of your daily life; until the body is *strong* enough for the same demands; and until you are relaxed enough for the demands of your life. At this point, putting it this way may seem a bit daunting, but it will be effective, in time. Good luck.]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,784,909#msg-909</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2006 10:53:46 +1100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Progress, setbacks, questions</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,784,908#msg-908</link>
      <author>BARRY</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Having suffered sciatica and lower back muscle pain for 13 years i have to agree with the programs/exercises outlined in Kit's book.
I have been going slowly and doing the following exercises for 8 weeks twice a week in this order -

- Seated side (Ex. 1)
- Calf (Ex. 35)
- Hamy (Ex. 10)
- Side (Ex. 8)
- Seated Fwd Bend (Ex. 2)

I can only do them for no more than 15 seconds on each muscle (with the side stretches being double on the left side of my body) or I suffer the next day. When I start to improve my flexiblity (if ever) I don't know whether to very gradually increase the time of the stretches or to go to 3 days a week.
I feel after 8 weeks I'm stuck and not progressing.
I've had a history of coming good (via stretching) and being pain free for periods of up to 2 months only to have the slightest  thing put me back to square one.

Anyone's thoughts regarding my situation would be greatly appreceiated.
Barry]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,784,908#msg-908</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2006 18:20:23 +1100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Pelvic stabilty and SI pain</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,801,907#msg-907</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[No one mentioned Leg length difference; I have successfully treated one of the most famous power lifter in the world for symptoms like yours.

Understand that a rotated pelvis is a *necessary* adaptation to a leg length difference.

and, James, did you notice that the poster hurt his back weight lifting? Many power lifter don't wear shoes (they use those Chines slippers that are also used for martial arts); many still hurt themselves in this activity. Can you please stop posting this single explanation (that shoes cause all illnesses) on this board, please? There are many other causes of illness besides shoes. Shoes may cause some problems—no argument there—but when you want this one explanation to do all the things you want it to, it becomes improbable in the extreme. I intend to post my experiences with Australian Aborigines (and counter your position at a basic level) next week. Shoes do not cause the problems you claim.

Symzie, have someone check the level of your hips, following the detailed protocol in the new edition of Overcome neck &amp; back pain. You might be surrised. If this is involved, using a lift in the heel of the shoe (sorry James: no shoe, no lift) can work wonders. cheers, kl]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,801,907#msg-907</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:23:16 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Iliopsoas and stomach problems</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,238,906#msg-906</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Wiebe J Zweerts de Jong Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
&gt; I'm not so sure about it. Jean-Pierre Barral told
&gt; us about the connection between these two. Look
&gt; for Visceral Manipulation Therapy. I expect this
&gt; will help to solve your problem.

Which bit were you not sure about? Visceral Manipulation Therapy's effects can often be duplicated by targeted stretching, as can the effects of many other modalities—not that getting this manipulation would not be of benefit too, of course. Together, likely to be even more effective. In any case, I stand by my two posts.]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,238,906#msg-906</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 21 Sep 2006 13:46:03 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Are shoes the cause of chronic low back pain and neck pain?</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,731,905#msg-905</link>
      <author>James</author>
      <description><![CDATA[kit Wrote:
&gt; I think we have done enough on this.

Kit,

Don't give up too quickly on this question, as we haven't even scratched the surface.

Shoes are not just any old factor, because the feet are fundamental in determining the posture, gait, and musculoskeletal and organic functioning of the entire body.  As Dr. Rossi put it, &quot;A secure, stable superstructure cannot be erected on a design-defective base or foundation.&quot;

So to begin with, have you ever seen a picture of a pristine foot--unaltered by footwear?

Thanks,
james]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,731,905#msg-905</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 14 Sep 2006 02:03:39 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Iliopsoas and stomach problems</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,238,904#msg-904</link>
      <author>Michael Howse</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Hi, 

as a Remedial massage therapist I have been told by many clients over the years that manual work, stretch and spray trigger point work and stretching to the psoas hes 'cured' their 'irritable bowel syndrome' - which I was unaware of at the time and was only explained later when the client noticed a cessation of symptoms. Psoas has a strong working relationship with the sympathetic nervous system, and is known to interfere with digestive processes (refer to Front to Back' by Aileen Jefferis from Adelaide). Having a taut band running through the abdomen has to produce some sort of problem. Trigger point therapy and good quality contract / relax stretching may indeed make a difference

Good luck


Michael Howse]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,238,904#msg-904</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 16:55:58 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Pelvic stabilty and SI pain</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,801,903#msg-903</link>
      <author>Michael Howse</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Paul, 

I have 'endured ' a similar type of problem for many years and feel it is largely in control now, so hope my humble contribution may help.

The trick here seems to be that you need to do some detective work with comparative flexibility issues throughout the calf, hamstring, quadriceps, hip flexors ( the clunk may be due to an excessively tight iliopsoas), hip adductor and abductor muscles, gluteal, piriformis, quadratus lumborum, latissimus dorsi and erector spinae muscles - in similar fashion to the ONBP assessment protocol. Map out where the shortfalls are and stretch them preferentially as per Kit's books. This will if carefully done, expose the body to corrective stress, which if accepted, will make you feel improved. The contract - relax aspect of the stretches coupled with the static hold aspect will help re educate the body.

Comparison of the piriformis is vital - sit with legs outstretched in front of you. Bend one leg and place the sole of the foot against the inner knee of the outstretched leg. Bend carefully forward as if attempting to touch your toes, note when you develop any initial change of sensation anywhere during the movement, stop and observe how far your fingers are from your toes. Swap sides and repeat. Whichever side is more distant between fingertips and toes needs the piriformis stretched - use exercise 5 of Stretching and flexibility on that side and retest - if the test is even bilaterally that is excellent - maintain daily.

The next step in my case in progression from inability to walk to sprinting was to learn the intracacies of core stability, my preference was to work carefully with a Swiss ball. This finished the job over 12 months and I am now only required to maintain myself.

Long project but worthwhile - good luck


Michael Howse]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,801,903#msg-903</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 16:48:17 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: subluxations</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,839,902#msg-902</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[In short, yes to both. Here are the mechanisms:

Subluxations (described as 'partial dislocations' in the Macquarie Dictionary) are said to have occurred when they are able to be rectified by manipulation. There are references to this phenomenon in all editions of ONBP. One might not find this circular argument persuasive—but none of the many happy patients of chiropractors have any problem with this.

When I was asked to speak at the Chiropractors and Osteopathic College's National Conference a few years ago, I discussed this very question. I asked, 'If subluxations are real, what is their cause?&quot; Some answers are LLI, asymmetrical lifestyle activities, and so on—all the things ONBP addresses in detail.

Spinal subluxations are caused by muscles and ligaments pulling on bones; this can happen quickly (trauma) or slowly (lifestyle). The right kind of stretching can change this tendency. Balancing the symmetry of the body (in terms of patterns of flexibility and strength) is the fastest way.

IMHO, intervertebral spaces (let's be specific: the ones that are significant for back pain are the [i]intervertebral foraminae[/i], the spaces that are formed by notches in the bottom and top of adjacent vertebrae, and through which the segmental nerves pass), CAN be increased (&quot;opened&quot;) by both movement and reduction in the held tension of the spinal and other key muscles. As well, in this scenario, the disks themselves (whose loss of height is one of the causes of these spaces narrowing) are able to regain much, and sometimes all, of their normal height. Even diseased disks can benefit.]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,839,902#msg-902</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 07 Sep 2006 10:37:22 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Kit: Makko ho, eversion &amp; weightless squats</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,744,901#msg-901</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[James: I want evidence for the case you argue here. A bald assertion:

&quot;Foot tension from shoes is fundamentally inhibiting joint and muscle flexibility throughout the entire body.&quot;

needs substantial weight behind it to be seriously considered as a reasonable position, I feel. Others may add their comments. See my other posts following yours elsewhere, and please respond to them.]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,744,901#msg-901</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 07 Sep 2006 10:16:50 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Remove the cause</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,784,900#msg-900</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[You write: &quot;only the last century has the majority of humans taken to wearing shoes that cripple the feet, which are the foundation of the body&quot;. 

But what about the 20% of the population that NEVER has neck or back pain, yet who wear shoes? Please address this question in one of your posts.

Getting back to the main argument, Yes—and [b]what else has changed in that time that has NOTHING to do with shoes? [/b]

Here's a partial list:

1. Proportion of time spent moving vs. time spent awake but immobile. Modern humans hardly walk anywhere; they drive. For work, they spend most of the day immobile in front of a computer screen, exactly as we are doing now. Alternatively, they are stuck in a car, immobile. The body hates immobility.

How different it was 50 years ago: my Mother walked five miles to and from school five days a week. All children did. Families that had cars had one—which Dad drove to work. Then, that was normal. Now, parents that allow their children to walk to school are regarded as negligent.

Hours in front of the television, once work has finished, are many many times higher now than 40 and 50 years ago. Television was a novelty; people listened to the radio—while DOING things. To watch TV, one must be stationary.

The body actualy needs movement; it is as important as food and drink.

2. Anxiety. Compared to 50 years ago, most people report that they are stressed these days; that there is a perception of pressure in normal daily life. There are many reasons: being asked to do more with less, terrorism, global instability, and on and on. Go back and look at the studies done in the 50s: well being and optimism were far more often reported than the same studies done now. Whether the 50s were a 'Pollyanna' period, totally unrealistic, etc., is beside the point: this is how people felt, largely.

The point is tension: when you feel pressure—internally created or externally imposed—the body's response is an increase in tonus. You know this is true. Any site of increased muscular tension is a potential trouble spot in respect of neck or back pain, if restorative activities are not undertaken.

3. Mental activity is a reflection of one's physical state. Paradoxically, what the mind needs for its refreshment—stillness—is what is lost as the body becomes more stationary. Curious, isn't it.

The mind needs quiet; the body needs movement. This is why I included the chapter on relaxation in the forst edition of ONBP. I have strengthened this relationship in the new edition.

As well, as I mentioned somewhere else, Plato wrote about the short leg and its role in back pain 2,500 years ago—during that halcyon period where people wore sandals (the 10% of hte population who wrote about life then, that is). Wearing shoes that compensate for this anatomical aspect actively assists the body in symmetrically distributing the load that acts on it—with the effect of overcoming one of the major causes of back pain.

James, nowhere have you made the case for shoes as the universal evil that you keep claiming here. As I wrote on another post, to make your case [b]you will need to articulate the factors that protect people from the negative effects of shoes in that fraction of the population who wear shoes, yet who never have the sort of problems that you blame shoes for[/b] (like this thread). 

Please step up to the plate and do that little thing I ask here—more people will listen to you if you can do that.]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,784,900#msg-900</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 07 Sep 2006 10:13:52 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Are shoes the cause of chronic low back pain and neck pain?</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,731,899#msg-899</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I think we have done enough on this. I have found perfect shoes as I mentioned above. As well, I do not have any physical problems personally, and I wear shoes that are excellent, feel great, can be run in, grip, and let me do literally everything I want to do, including balancing, etc. As well, like a great many people, I wear shoes only some of the time—about 10–20% of all the hours of the day, by a rough calculation.

Most people need to wear shoes for any number of reason—including avoiding stepping in doggy doo-doo. All the reasons you give above for the undesirabiliy of shoes may may sense in limited contexts—but ANY scientific understanding only draws a partial picture. For example, my own feet are in excellent condition biomechanically, with all arches demonstrated, they neither pronate nor evert, all toes articulate etc., etc.—and I wear shoes a lot of the time, sometimes, and wore them all though childhood. The point is that the rest of my lifestyle offsets the potentially negative effects you dwell on exclusively. Most any effect can be exacerbated or ameliorated in this way. This is just one reason we do the stretching we do, and the weight training, and so on. Mostly, it's about awareness: how the body is using itself—and you may recall that I am fond of asking workshop participants, &quot;Where is the weight on your feet right now?&quot; at odd times. 

The point of this question is to raise awareness. For many reasons, most people press more weight through the heel and the big-toe side of the foot. This leads to pronation, among other things. But as soon as people become aware of this, it changes, without any other work being needed. We have had a number of students completely alter their tendency to pronation this way, over 6 months to a year—just by occasionally asking themselves this question. Note that their shoe-wearing habits were not part of this change.

By focussing all your polemical energy on just ONE factor out of a great number of factors that we know are causal in neck and back pain—many of these that have absolutely nothing to do with shoes—renders you less effective in pressing your point of view than you otherwise could be. You are in danger of become a 'one trick pony', as they say. Nowhere in any of your writings here have you acknowledged any of these many other causes. When you can articulate a model that incorporates your ideas of the causes of these problems together with the other universally-acknowledged causes, then I might be more recpeptive.]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,731,899#msg-899</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 07 Sep 2006 09:47:06 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Are shoes the cause of chronic low back pain and neck pain?</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,731,898#msg-898</link>
      <author>James</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Kit,

Thanks for your comment.  Before spending too much more time or money searching for the perfect shoe, you might consider reading Dr. Rossi's article detailing why all shoes make a natural gait impossible.

(Among the many reasons: Shoe lasts are crooked, but a natural foot is straight such that a line drawn from the heel through the second and third toes equally divides it.  Concavity under the ball of the foot likewise causes distress for the foot.  We already mentioned sole flexibility.  Toe spring refers to the upward tilt of the front of the shoe, which hyperextends the toes.  Elevated heels likewise influence body mechanics.  Shoe weight is a considerable factor because of the leverage at the feet.  The foot changes shape depending on temperature and humidity, but the shoe does not.  And besides, any sole inhibits or annihilates sensory contact with the environment, affecting the ability to balance.)

I realize it is hard to believe that--after 10,000 years, and especially given our highly advanced technologies of the last century--nobody has invented an ideal shoe.  Perhaps that's indicating no such shoe is even possible.

As Dr. Rossi points out, &quot;It took four million years to develop our unique human foot and our consequent distinctive form of gait, a remarkable feat of bioengineering.  Yet, in only a few thousand years, and with one carelessly designed instrument, our shoes, we have warped the pure anatomical form of human gait, obstructing its engineering efficiency, afflicting it with strains and stresses and denying it its natural grace of form and ease of movement head to foot.  We have converted a beautiful thoroughbred into a plodding plowhorse.&quot;

james]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,731,898#msg-898</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 07 Sep 2006 03:26:24 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Are shoes the cause of chronic low back pain and neck pain?</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,731,897#msg-897</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[But, but but:

This is why I mentioned the Keenes that  wear: fractional fittings, perfectly supply and grippy soles, breathing uppers—better than bare feet in today's urban environments. And, there are MANY modern shoe makers who see things similarly to you, James—and I feel strongly that these kind of shoes cannot be the cause of all the ills that you claim.

And arthritis—there are more than 150 diiferent kinds, with [i]different[/i] causes—so shoes cannot be the root cause of all these problems, IMO.

Kit]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,731,897#msg-897</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 04 Sep 2006 16:23:44 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Are shoes the cause of chronic low back pain and neck pain?</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,731,896#msg-896</link>
      <author>James</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Kit is certainly not alone in believing crippled feet to be harmless in chronic pain, let alone in the numerous other degenerative diseases that plagued humans during the twentieth century--most notably Alzheimer's disease.

Yet nothing fits the evidence like the shoe.  Consider that shoes have become cheaper and more available, with each new shoe requiring a break-in period that further strains the body.  Over the last century, our feet have gotten bigger, but shoe sizes have not; indeed, many shoes are now available only in a single width.  And during the last quarter-century, footwear became even more deforming with thicker and heavier soles that are far less flexible; the modern sneaker epitomizes these recent changes.

With the foregoing factors working at the very base of the human body, why should there be any surprise that arthritis became widespread, affecting even younger ages than ever before?

james]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,731,896#msg-896</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 03 Sep 2006 04:48:18 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Remove the cause</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,784,895#msg-895</link>
      <author>James</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Kit,

Since the beginning, humans have been eating, sleeping, sitting, lifting, bending, and all of the other activities to which chronic pain is now commonly ascribed.

But in only the last century has the majority of humans taken to wearing shoes that cripple the feet, which are the foundation of the body.

Thanks for your comments,
james]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,784,895#msg-895</guid>
      <pubDate>Sun, 03 Sep 2006 04:44:51 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: to add to this discussion</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,600,894#msg-894</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Jim,

The body is anything but still when standing: there are many many small adjustments being made muscularly, continuously. The misapplication of muscle tonus you refer to is most commonly displayed in the heightened state of arousal that is so often noticed in people around us—and in us when we are upset about something! This is only a problem if excessive (in absolute force and in duration) and if not able to be voluntarily relaxed. And yes—this describes most people and is the reason (IMHO), that neck and back problems are common. I am not disagreeing about your assertion re. deep stabilisers; I am just commenting that all this works beautifully in a system that experiences the sort of stresses that we experience (stretching and strengthening) when we choose to do the sort of physical activites that are described on these pages—and it is marvelously self-organising system! cheers to all, KL]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,600,894#msg-894</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:34:06 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Progress, setbacks, questions</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,784,893#msg-893</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[To the original poster, DrJAG2—

How are you going these days? I noticed today that when you posted, you had been doing the stretches for &quot;2.5 weeks&quot;. Sorry to say this, but in the case of a body that has been a certain way for years, it will take some time for the results of new exercises to be experienced.

And James: on your account of &quot;correlation equals cause&quot;, DrJAG2 should reasonably eliminate eating and sleeping from his daily routine as well, to be consistent, as both are 100% correlated with his back pain!

As a comment, it must be said that althought as a culture we always search for the cause of a problem, rarely in this kind of problem is there a single cause. We search for a cause because if we can find a real one, a 'cure' is a possibility. In other words, the search for a cause is about efficiency of intervention. In most back pain, a number of causes exist simultaneously. LLI is a major cause (in the sense that its driving effects are strong) of low back pain, but we also acknowledge that back pain is common in those with symmetrical skeletons, too. The situation is more complex than simply stating that shoes (or any other single possible cause) are the problem.]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,784,893#msg-893</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 16:19:04 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Dieting for Type I diabetes</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,724,892#msg-892</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[As I understand it, the purpose of insulin injection is to provide the needed insulin in an environment where it's not provided naturally by the body. Glucometers (devices that measure glucose levels in blood) are used by some diabetics to ascertain the amount of insulin needed, and adjust insulin to fit changing needs. The accuracy of the amount of, and the timing of the insulin self-dosing is what provides the stabilisation. Too much insulin might make the body store too much of its food intake, in fact (insulin is the number one storage hormone; glucose as glycogen in muscles, and fat in fat stores). Getting the doses right is extremely important, both in regards to one's health and functioning and in regards to the maintenance of one's ideal muscle–fat ratios.

The diet you mention (&quot;tuna and rabbit food&quot;)—I assume that's a tongue-in-cheek reference to high protein–low carb diets—can be helpful in stabilising blood sugar; however, their suitability for an insulin-dependent diabetic is questionable, IMO.  

This is a big, complex subject. A number of points, in no particular order: it is still possible to not lose body fat on a high protein–low carb diet, if the calories are in excess of what's needed. Another point: a month is sometimes not enough time to determine whether a change in dietary regimen is working or not. The body resists changing whatever is normal for it (especially if the person concerned has had this excess fat for a long time). Further: exercise copmes in many forms; although aerobic exercise is the usual recommendation for fat loss, weight training and some aerobic exercise will likely be more effectve. Last in this brief note: a person with a slow matabolism might need to eat even less calories that what is recommended for any particular body weight—which has the undesirable effect of slowing the metabolism even more. Calorie restriction is usually not the way to go; rather, the matabolism needs to be stimulated (frequent meals and relatively intensive exercise are two good ways) and insulin doses need to be very carefully monitored.

The short answer to your question is to have someone who know what they are doing analyse both the insulin intake  and its timing, the composition of each meal to ensure as far as possible that it has a good ratio of protein to fat and carbs, and to suggest that your friend consider more frequent and smaller meals (up to five or six per day) where the total calorie content is slightly less than what she currently eats, assuming that the calories she was eating in that month were roughly equivalent to her output—and that is very hard to assess. The crazy thing is that eating the same calories that she eats now, but balanced in each small meal and divided so that she is eating more often, but in smaller amounts, is likely to help her lose that fat—especially if she is doing some sensible weight training two–three times a week, and doing some aerobic exercise following the weight training. I would strongly recommend that a doctor or suitable specialist look at her insulin doses—in relation to her exercise and eating. hth, kl]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,724,892#msg-892</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 15:56:20 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Stretching questioned again?</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,763,891#msg-891</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Quote: I recall Kit saying that you can be a &quot;tight brick&quot; and still avoid injury as long as it is accompanied with (core) strength.

What I said was you can have the flexibility of a house brick [i]and not have any neck or back problems as long as the flexibility you have is symmetrical[/i]. This is a crucial dimension that escaped me for years.

And I do agree that core strength itself can avoid many problems that would otherwise manifest. I have not entered the &quot;is stretching good or bad&quot; debate, ever, here or anywhere else. I am unlikely to, either. Like the Founding Fathers, I take some truths to be 'self evident'. I will say that the research into stretching is poor, in its design, duration of experiments, and the rhubrics tested for.  For example, &quot;well being&quot; is pretty nebulous, scientifically—yet literally everyone knows what it means to feel better or worse.]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,763,891#msg-891</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:00:24 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Are standing hamstring stretches really possible?</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,799,890#msg-890</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[chicagoDave quoted the good Dr:

&quot;You can’t stretch your hamstrings standing in any position. If your leg is weight bearing and you lean forward from the pelvis, the hamstrings contract involuntarily to stabilize your pelvis and prevent gravity from pulling your body forward. This proprioceptive response to gravity and balance is a reflex response that you can’t prevent. You cannot relax the hamstring muscles as long as you are holding that position. 

The standing toe-touch and the ballet bar stretch are both bad stretches that can cause damage to the hamstrings, as well as other structures like the lumbar spine ligaments and sciatic nerve.&quot;

In two words, 'complete crap'. This is when an incomplete understanding of the science and physiology involved seems to offer a strong position—in the face of all experience to the contrary. It reminds me of an old story that went around a few years ago, where (it was alleged) &quot;physics has proved that bumblebees cannot fly&quot; , citing arguments structured around power-to-weight ratios and wing area, etc. (Let's leave aside the problem that sciences never 'proves' anything.) Yet fly around they do, every day.

Definitely, you can stretch hamstrings with standing poses. Why, otherwise, would Yoga devote so much practise time to the standing postures? If you use bent-leg standing forward bends, contractions against gravity, and use the hip flexors to do the restretch, Pavel's cited exercise can work very well. 

Mel Siff once said to me, &quot;There are no dangerous exercises; only dangerous ways of [i]doing[/i] exercises. This is my position, too.]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,799,890#msg-890</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 12:35:15 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: How do hamstrings push?</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,740,889#msg-889</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[JimP—far from me minding, I want this board to regain its fomer activity and, hopefully, surpass it wildly!

For many many reasons I have been absent on the boards, but (as Arnold has said in most of his movies), &quot;I'll be back!&quot;

I'm back!

cheers to all, Kit]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,740,889#msg-889</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 12:25:10 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Public Forum] Re: Workshops in the UK?</title>
      <link>http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,782,888#msg-888</link>
      <author>kit</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Terry, I am off to Vancouver in October to run workshops there. I have an EU passport—so can work legally in the EU—make me an offer I can't refuse!

I will go anywhere workshops are organised for me. All we need is a sufficient number of interested people. I am very happy to correspond on this. Cheers, KL]]></description>
      <category>Public Forum</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.nast.com.au/discussion/read.php?1,782,888#msg-888</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2006 12:21:06 +1000</pubDate>
    </item>
  </channel>
</rss>
<br />
<b>Warning</b>:  mkdir() [<a href='function.mkdir'>function.mkdir</a>]: SAFE MODE Restriction in effect.  The script whose uid/gid is 300973/100 is not allowed to access /home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/cache/5b624a525b12a10af4736df1709ff292 owned by uid/gid 80/80 in <b>/home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/include/cache.php</b> on line <b>147</b><br />
<br />
<b>Warning</b>:  mkdir() [<a href='function.mkdir'>function.mkdir</a>]: SAFE MODE Restriction in effect.  The script whose uid/gid is 300973/100 is not allowed to access /home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/cache/5b624a525b12a10af4736df1709ff292 owned by uid/gid 80/80 in <b>/home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/include/cache.php</b> on line <b>147</b><br />
<br />
<b>Warning</b>:  mkdir() [<a href='function.mkdir'>function.mkdir</a>]: SAFE MODE Restriction in effect.  The script whose uid/gid is 300973/100 is not allowed to access /home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/cache/5b624a525b12a10af4736df1709ff292 owned by uid/gid 80/80 in <b>/home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/include/cache.php</b> on line <b>147</b><br />
<br />
<b>Warning</b>:  mkdir() [<a href='function.mkdir'>function.mkdir</a>]: SAFE MODE Restriction in effect.  The script whose uid/gid is 300973/100 is not allowed to access /home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/cache/5b624a525b12a10af4736df1709ff292 owned by uid/gid 80/80 in <b>/home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/include/cache.php</b> on line <b>147</b><br />
<br />
<b>Warning</b>:  mkdir() [<a href='function.mkdir'>function.mkdir</a>]: SAFE MODE Restriction in effect.  The script whose uid/gid is 300973/100 is not allowed to access /home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/cache/5b624a525b12a10af4736df1709ff292 owned by uid/gid 80/80 in <b>/home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/include/cache.php</b> on line <b>147</b><br />
<br />
<b>Warning</b>:  mkdir() [<a href='function.mkdir'>function.mkdir</a>]: SAFE MODE Restriction in effect.  The script whose uid/gid is 300973/100 is not allowed to access /home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/cache/5b624a525b12a10af4736df1709ff292 owned by uid/gid 80/80 in <b>/home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/include/cache.php</b> on line <b>147</b><br />
<br />
<b>Warning</b>:  mkdir() [<a href='function.mkdir'>function.mkdir</a>]: SAFE MODE Restriction in effect.  The script whose uid/gid is 300973/100 is not allowed to access /home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/cache/5b624a525b12a10af4736df1709ff292 owned by uid/gid 80/80 in <b>/home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/include/cache.php</b> on line <b>147</b><br />
<br />
<b>Warning</b>:  mkdir() [<a href='function.mkdir'>function.mkdir</a>]: SAFE MODE Restriction in effect.  The script whose uid/gid is 300973/100 is not allowed to access /home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/cache/5b624a525b12a10af4736df1709ff292 owned by uid/gid 80/80 in <b>/home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/include/cache.php</b> on line <b>147</b><br />
<br />
<b>Warning</b>:  mkdir() [<a href='function.mkdir'>function.mkdir</a>]: SAFE MODE Restriction in effect.  The script whose uid/gid is 300973/100 is not allowed to access /home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/cache/5b624a525b12a10af4736df1709ff292 owned by uid/gid 80/80 in <b>/home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/include/cache.php</b> on line <b>147</b><br />
<br />
<b>Warning</b>:  fopen() [<a href='function.fopen'>function.fopen</a>]: SAFE MODE Restriction in effect.  The script whose uid/gid is 300973/100 is not allowed to access /home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/cache/5b624a525b12a10af4736df1709ff292 owned by uid/gid 80/80 in <b>/home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/include/cache.php</b> on line <b>97</b><br />
<br />
<b>Warning</b>:  fopen(./cache/5b624a525b12a10af4736df1709ff292/rss/744b/d425/5ce0/ced8/a637/80d2/3ba8/ec51/data.php) [<a href='function.fopen'>function.fopen</a>]: failed to open stream: Illegal seek in <b>/home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/include/cache.php</b> on line <b>97</b><br />
<br />
<b>Warning</b>:  fwrite(): supplied argument is not a valid stream resource in <b>/home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/include/cache.php</b> on line <b>98</b><br />
<br />
<b>Warning</b>:  fclose(): supplied argument is not a valid stream resource in <b>/home/2-web/25/1a/nast.com.au/public/www/discussion/include/cache.php</b> on line <b>99</b><br />
